One more Twin Spin Video, OR "Discover the Untold Secrets of the Ultimate Twin Spin Video"

Scott, I worked at Beech in Experimental Flight Test while this program was being conducted. While I was not on this program myself, I daily observed it and discussed it with the engineers and test pilots involved (in the original film on YouTube I recognized many people I knew). While I am remembering back 45 years and the memory isn't what it used to be, a few pertinent things I remember: 1. The test program was driven by the requirement to recover in 2 turns or less from a 6-turn spin from standard and aggravated entries. 2. Opposite aileron during the entry was a carryover from the required spin entry technique for the model 77 Skipper. If aileron is not used on a Skipper, standard entry technique results in a steep spiral, not a spin. 3. Standard recovery technique (power idle, ailerons neutral, rudder against the spin and aft stick until rotation stops) was positive but borderline on recovering from the fully-developed spin in the required 2 turns. I recall it taking between 2 and 2 1/4 turns, but my memory is a little foggy on that - I do remember it hovering around 2 turns give or take. CG position may have been a player. NASA recommended trying aileron with the spin to recover in addition to the standard technique. It made the aircraft recover about 1/4 turn faster, which would have satisfied the requirement. I was taking my own multiengine training in a Dutchess about the time this program was finishing, and it was very comforting to me to know that the Dutchess would respond to standard spin prevent and standard spin recovery techniques and would not enter a locked-in flat spin - at least NASA and Beech Flight Test could not find a flat spin mode.

Thanks for Posting!

That spin at 2:44 was really disturbing. That is usually the last moments that pilot will see in his life! Really appreciate the comments that say that the best thing is NOT to get into the position of flying craft into a perilous state.

Iam lucky enough to be a fairly experienced pilot after 40 plus years and some 14,000 hours in many different airplanes. One thing I know for sure is than when things go to hell in a single its bad, but when things go to hell in a twin its really bad👍

These presentations are first-rate, Scott. I always look forward to them.

My hope is that these videos scare pilots into keeping their twins far away from the spin region. Even a 172 can lose a thousand feet in a spin before recovery...which is a good reason to teach spins in a Skyhawk. I mean, if a Skyhawk loses that much altitude, their twin is basically a lawn dart in comparison. I think it might be an effective eye opener. Edit to say, thanks for sharing.

The more I learn about spins in light twins, the better a Cessna 337 looks to me.

All these videos on light twins tell me one thing and one thing only, light twins are the most dangerous airplane one can fly. If you lose an engine in a critical phase of flight your reflexes better be on point to get the nose down and crash straight ahead otherwise you have no chance, not to mention how dangerous training is in these airplanes where one mistake can easily kill you. Not even sure I want the ME rating anymore, I rather have that one engine and a crappy glider if it quits than illusions of maybe being able to keep flying and trap myself due to a small mistake.

Well done! I like that "pro-spin" analysis of control inputs. Most things you can do encourage the spin. Very sensible. As a side note, back in the late 1980's and through the 1990's I used to place 20 or so tell-tales with tape and yarn on the left wing during instructional flights to demonstrate the breakdown of airflow from the root out to the tip. Nothing like seeing the airflow breaking down.

I remember stalls in the Piper PA38-112 Traumahawk, which is a T tail. Was my first experience in a low wing when I was working on my ppl.

Thanks for the excellent points Scott! What your relate about moments of inertia, pro-spin inputs and differences in aircraft such as T-Tail designs, is something that while a focus of attention in GA during the 80's seems to have dissipated from the flying consciousness and sorely needs to be brought fourth. What you relate helps to make sense of of personal near fatal experiences in twins, one of which I shared in the comments of one of your previous tuffted F33 spin videos, about a Bi-Annual Flight Review I had in a B55 involving a high-time CFI-MEI with zero time in Barons, who insisted on me demonstrating a VMC recovery, where my the heel of my right food became restricted by the sheet-metal cover below the rudders pedals and I was unable to add full rudder deflection, and the CFI abruptly stomping full right rudder with his #12 causing an abrupt yaw and what we later deemed to be loss of airflow over the vertical stab that ended up in an inverted roll and spin that without both of us having aerobatic training, we likely would not have recovered from. From a higher altitude we explored abrupt rudder inputs near VMC and found what appeared to be the ability to induce a sudden loss of rudder control with large rudder inputs and lateral inertial moment coupling. We later cautiously tried the same near VMC rapid rudder inputs In his straight tail Cessna C-310 which I sold to him (N666T) and observed no such tendency as the B55, and we speculated that the taller straight V-Stab on the 310 combined with the huge inertial mass of the 310's tip tanks and less tapered wing might have reduced what the Baron exhibited, however we speculated that the larger lateral inertial moment of those 310 tip tanks might make actual spin recovery in the 310 less likely then the B55. What you relate Scott about a "Thin triangle" of the B55's rudder being all you have available for spin recovery against a huge amount of inertial moment might also have something to do with what we observed in the B55 vs. the 310. The only other twin-spin experience I inadvertently encountered relates strongly to what you point out about inertial moments, pro-spin inputs and deep stalls, in an early (5th production Ser#) Cessna 337, on a sales-demo flight where I allowed an ATP to fly from the left seat who wanted to explore stalls, and he did so unaware he had left about 60% power on the rear engine, which being in a pusher configuration produced some right yaw (ball to the right), at which point I said: "You better step on that ball before you stall this thing". At which point he applied a lot of right rudder and hogged back on the yoke, and as the right wing dropped he applied full left-aileron, and then full up-elevator, and with full right rudder and left aileron applied,froze solid on the controls and throttles as we rolled inverted and his 300lb ATP buddy in the back who removed is seat belt after takeoff fell against the headliner yelling and kicking me in the back of the head. I manage to wrestle the controls away and recover into a vertical dive (I observed that at in a vertical dive the 337 produces enough drag to not accelerate very fast after about 230mph indicated) and was barely able to recover after catching a couple of accelerated stalls just above treetop level from what started about 4500agl. Everything Scott, you explain about inertial moments, pro-spin inputs and deep stalls we learned and survived in the 337 that day. The 337 has two heavy engines, at each end of the fuselage creating a very centered CG, and a long wing with 120 to 140 gals of span-wise fuel, and a huge elevator that can produce a very deep stall and some thrilling if not fatal stall-spin adventures . Later, when I bought a Twin-Comanche, I enlisted Carl, a CFI-MEI who had done some FAA re-certification flight tests for the Twin-Comanche that resulted in major increase to the Twin-Comanche's VMC and operational changes, had also done some spin testing as a certification test pilot, and what he impressed was to maintain keen Yaw awareness, and how lowering angle of attack on first detection of yaw deviation can be your quickest and most effective spin and VMC loss of control defense. In a Mooney and later in a single engine Comanchen 250, I was using to practice for the ATP (As I didn't have a twin at the time), Carl simulated VMC recovery in a single by setting up power-on approach to stalls in a cross-controlled condition, thereby practicing, recognizing and recovering from yaw deviation by lowering the nose and reducing power to stop the yaw divergence. I found that training a big awareness booster, and from then on strove to maintain acute awareness of yaw deviations and preventing them before they result in loss of control. That awareness is something that can be developed in single engine aircraft that can translate into twin engine survival as well. I may have mentioned previously Scott, that if awareness, recognition and avoidance of stall-spin/VMC loss of control should be more strongly emphasized in addition to recovery awareness and practice to as back in the 80's to address a rash of Twin-spin incidents.

When I was flying the Yak52 I took the time to fly down to Halfpenny Green (UK) not far from my base airfield to get flat spin recovery training with Yak 52 aerobatic exponent Gennedy Elfimof (Mr. Yak). It was a privilege to fly with him and we did several flat spins and recoveries in our Yak52. It was quite a few years ago but I remember spin entry was as for a normal spin but power on and out-spin aileron. The sensation of the world spinning horizontally around us took some getting used to. Recovery was [power off, in spin aileron, out spin rudder, full forward stick ALL APPLIED AT THE SAME TIME] until the spin stopped. So the stick was pushed hard into the relevant top corner, left top corner or right top corner, with opposite rudder, as the power was pulled right back. Then centralise and recover from the dive. (Caveat - this isn't flight instruction - consult your flight instructor for that) Vince

Just came across your website. Excited to find a civilian doing this. I’m ex military so obviously we were always addressing spins. My son is almost done with his commercial and it’s just amazing how little the FAA is concerned with spin training.I was a T2C spin instructor in the Navy and we practiced upright/inverted spin recoveries for students going thru ACM training

Thanks Scott, as my late uncle taught me when we flew together, don't get intona spin in the first place. He drove Thuds in Vietnam and had a 150 & 310.

I agree, that training for spin prevention is best practice and if you own any plane, especially a twin you should never get close to the spin with a loss of engine because you have trained for it. However, if you ever do get into a spin in a twin, your spin-prevent training will not do a damn thing for you. At that point, if you have not trained for spin recovery in a twin you are dead. you don't have to spin your pane to train for it. you can sit on the ground and go through the motions over and over and over. If you don't know what to do once the spin you trained so hard to prevent starts you have nothing. Spin prevention is best practice but spin recovery is also best practice. When you get into a bad situation that you have trained to stay away from, this is called an accident, at this point just like a race car driver once the spin starts if not trained to recover your odds are very low.

Hi Scott. I was on that chat and learned a lot even though I am not even flying right now. I was the one near the end that asked what is the best altitude to do a VMCa Demo and Juan was like, "As high as you can be." He's right. But then again, you have differently aspirated engines. He chuckled. I love you guys' channels even though I am not a currently related pilot, but rather a journalist who is always on the lookout for air crashes.

Thank goodness that they actually did the Spin Test program... Yes, thank you, Beechcraft... They are the ones who put together a well-built twin-engine Dutches for the program as well as a test pilot, with data recorders to advance our understanding of twin-engine aircraft Stall, Spin, and Recovery... Watched it many times over to understand Stall Spin and the Dreaded twin engine Stall and Spin, while grappling with the idea of Blue line and rudder authority/ability and the excess rollover forces of the dead engine wing side...

I'm 75, not a pilot. I arrived here because of Juan Brown. Thank you sir. USN 68-74, ETR-2, maintained GCA RADAR and TACAN at NAS Miramar, 70-74. Just interested, and saddened, by so much loss of these kids

From a 172 guy, I'll just take your word for fact and let someone else try that stuff. Remember folks, it's supposed to be fun and fairly safe at the same time.😊

Good discussion Scott. Imo the recent multi engine spins from VMC demos should have the FAA rewrite the ACS to delete the requirement for full rudder in the demo. Commonly the instructor or examiner in the right seat guards the rudders with their feet which is the safe thing to do but if the ACS made this technique a requirement safety would be enhanced. Seems to me half rudder travel is enough during the demo it still proves the point to the student.