Does Consciousness Extend Beyond Brains? The 2023 Holberg Debate, feat. Seth, Luhrmann, Sheldrake.

"True consciousness is achieved when the act of causing harm, even to the smallest creature, pains you."

“Wisdom tells me I am nothing. Love tells me I am everything. Between the two my life flows” — Nisargadatta Maharaj

A year ago I went 5 times. to a pain management clinic for my multiple sclerosis’ pain and depression. I was given ketamine for 5 sessions. It was unfortunately a temporary success for pain and depression but I had the most worthwhile spiritual experience! I was comforted to understand the various dimensions of life and consciousness.

Even though it's a debate I find it really relaxing which seems counter intuitive to what I'd expect from a debate. Goes to show how todays program always makes us think people have to be loud and yell at each other. Thank goodness we can hear everyone speak and find each point of view interesting enough to give it some air to ponder.

“How things seem is not a good explanation of how things are”

The problem with using anesthesia as evidence of oblivion, is that there is no way to rule out the possibility of a rich experience during anesthesia that is not stored in the memory of the brain. It could be that anesthesia shuts off biological memory, such that when one comes to it seems as if there was only oblivion. Imagine a computer running but nothing gets saved, the computer will by definition not recognize any of the states it was in when the memory was shut off, but it was still running.

It's always a good day when Rupert Sheldrake pops up in your playlist

Loved your podcast…very enlightening! Thank you SO much. God bless you, and more power to you!

tHANK YOU PHENOMENICAL WEBINAR!

I was drawn to this debate specifically because 13 years ago it was discovered that I was having seizures. After unsuccessfully trialing 13 anti-epileptic drugs, I had my entire right temporal lobe removed. I was 51 years old. The world is no longer what I knew it to be, leading to much questioning of all reality. My experience of living on this planet is now ENTIRELY different... It was rather horrifying to hear the statement that brain is overrated! I wish I'd understood and valued my brain more than I did. That being said, while my ability to function as I once did has been significantly compromised, I don't believe the brain surgery has reduced my "consciousness". In fact, I feel that I am more conscious and aware! Myself, my thoughts, functioning, light, sound, smells, sensations, the energies from outside sources, nuances, and my surroundings tend to be entirely overwhelming. I often feel TOO conscious... That being said, I am intrigued by the research and depth of thought and ideas presented here. I too will continue to explore brain function, consciousness, etc. from my own experience and perspective. Thank you for sharing this debate!

Very lively debate and a very diverse field of study. I spent a few years of my life trying to quantify consciousness for the purposes of determining how much anaesthetic should be given to a patient in order to safely keep them unconscious. This debate touched on this subject and a few other related subjects. Anil Seth very skillfully side stepped how consciousness originates and assumed that consciousness only resides within the physical confines of the human brain (Tanya Luhrmann was a little more philosophical about this). Instead they both focused on the physical aspects of consciousness, which are all that any scientist can measure. This is a totally rational way to think, based on the scant information we currently poses on this topic. These physical aspects, give us absolutely no clues as to the nature of human consciousness and its origins. Debates of this kind tend to become very philosophical and go around in circles as one is left to speculate because of the fundamental lack of information. Rupert Sheldrake seemed to me to be a lot more open minded on whether consciousness can extend outside of the human brain and even though he's considered as something of a maverick and heretic by many of his (biologically minded) peers, I like his open mindedness and some of his ideas, which leaves the door open for new ideas. Work on machine consciousness has been progressing for many years. There are various schools of thought on how to give machines self awareness. The problem has been that the predominant school of thought was that consciousness would be achieved by increasing the complexity of the artificial neural networks used to build AI. But with gigantic leaps in the computing power of these artificial neural networks, self awareness akin to human consciousness has not been achieved. So most probably, brain complexity is not the origin of human consciousness. The work of Physicist Roger Penrose and Neuroscientist Stuart Hameroff on human consciousness adds a quantum component to the workings of the human brain, by way of the nano-tubules found within brain cells. This seems to suggest that consciousness could originate from quantum interactions within brain cells. Quantum entanglement of subatomic particles has shown us that space-time is non-local. If this hypothesis of consciousness holds true, it could also lead us to the conclusion that consciousness can reside outside of the human brain. Again, this is hypothetical. There are many other schools of thought on this issue. One hypothesis pointed to by string theory is that we could be living inside a black hole, in which case we could be living inside a 2D hologram which feels and looks like a 3D universe. The interesting thing about holograms is that each element which makes up the hologram contains all of the information contained in the entire hologram. If that's the case then our consciousness might be contained in the tiniest elements which make up this universe ......... pure speculation, but again, we're in the realms of pure philosophy here. The simulation hypothesis is another, where we could be living inside a huge computer simulation, in which case non of what we experience is real and that anything is possible within the bounds of the computer simulation. Or, we could all be parts of some massive universal consciousness which connects everything and could mean that our consciousness does not reside within our physical brain. Such a theory of mind could also tie in with emerging physics hypotheses of consciousness and information theory, where information itself has mass and therefore energy, and that consciousness could be more fundamental than either energy or matter. Again hypothetical, but possibly mathematically provable ? or disprovable ..... The questions these scientists and others are asking are as fundamental as the questions about creation of the universe and life itself. These are the deep questions we have asked for thousands of years, and could take thousands more years to truly answer, if at all..... They will not be answered by biologists. The answers will come by integrating fields such as physics, mathematics, biology and chemistry. Each science describes one small piece of the puzzle.

I had dreams of being in a building or outside of one, and in my mind I am familiar with interior and what is on each floor, and even behind the building, and around the corner down the street. I have visual recall of these aspects and details of the environment. I also know the people, their names and remember what we talked about two or three days ago, but when I wake up, I have no idea of who and where I was. In the dream, I knew specifics like room #s, and locker key combinations, and I also know if I have 2 minutes or 10 minutes to get where I am going and I feel the urgency to get there. When I wake up, just 2 seconds later, there is no reference for anything I was just deeply involved in. I try to recall the place, people and details, but nothing. I think I am living a different life in my sleep. I feel that I am the same person in the dream, but recalling memories from a different life. When I am thinking in the dream, the relevant ideas and information to the present moment or circumstance are fresh and readily available in memory, as if I am accessing an established way of thinking and believing, I am not familiar with when I awaken.

I was comatose following a motorcycle accident in 1985 I was diagnosed as being comatose following a motorcycle accident. That is how I appeared to the medical staff anyway. However I was very busy at the time with some intense activities. I was floating in a black void like being in a womb not like outer space. It was very comforting and I still recollect every emotion I felt and everything I saw while I was "gone". I spontaneously returned while the doctors where rounding and I heard them speaking with the nurse and my wife. They said there had been no change with sadness in their voices. I however felt 3 things in rapid succession even though I had broken my pelvis, neck, right clavicle, upper arm both sides and left leg. 1) So disappointed in having to come back 2) Why is everyone so worried about me. I'll be fine 3) I know something you all don't and it's fantastic. Four months later my wife died in childbirth. Make of my story what you will.

01:15 The Holberg debate explores the scientific and philosophical question of consciousness. 03:48 The 2023 Holberg Debate has no defender of the faith or Social Democrat, only heretics. 08:48 Exploring consciousness and its existence beyond human brains. 11:18 Understanding Consciousness is a challenge of modern science 15:38 Renaissance in scientific study of Consciousness 17:40 The brain is a prediction machine controlling our experiences. 21:30 Scientific understanding of consciousness is evolving 23:24 Consciousness is not the same as the mind 27:18 Challenging the notion of extended consciousness beyond the brain. 29:47 Humans can experience thoughts as not their own 34:19 Conflicting intuitions about the relationship between mental and physical. 36:36 Imagining a porous Mind-World boundary increases likelihood of experiencing God or spirit. 40:54 Prayer and communication with a higher power 43:05 Creating and interacting with tulpas using mental imagery and communication. 47:46 Rupert Sheldrake proposed the theory of morphic resonance, leading to controversy in the scientific community. 50:07 Consciousness as controlled hallucination 54:28 Understanding the process of vision and how the brain creates images. 56:36 Understanding the historical context of visual perception theories. 1:00:55 The sense of being stared at is common and directional. 1:02:49 Training to enhance sensitivity is possible and should be more widely accessible 1:07:00 Consciousness extends throughout the body and beyond the brain. 1:09:21 Moving away from the notion of a single controlling entity within humans. 1:13:13 Consciousness extends beyond our physical body 1:15:16 Consciousness and the brain have an intimate relationship. 1:18:56 Understanding different experiences and their importance in science 1:20:56 Interpretation of words on consciousness and human experience 1:24:54 Neural activity generates weak electromagnetic fields beyond the skull. 1:26:46 Different methods of gathering data change how one relates to truth. 1:31:12 Beliefs and relationship with an invisible being can have a profound impact 1:33:13 Importance of non-true things in literature and moral principles 1:37:02 Consciousness extends beyond brains 1:39:02 Consciousness may extend beyond the brain. 1:42:47 Does consciousness actually exist beyond our own experiences? 1:44:45 Quality of evidence is more important than quantity 1:48:34 The nature of Consciousness shapes our experiences and sense of self. 1:50:25 Phantom limb pain can be treated with virtual reality limbs and adjusting feedback. 1:54:08 Theories about the nature of consciousness 1:56:01 Consciousness theories are not completely proven 1:59:51 Consciousness is not everywhere, but we are continuous with nature. 2:01:48 The concept of extending aliveness to the world and ethical responsibility. 2:05:34 Consciousness may extend beyond individual brains 2:07:37 Beliefs may have collective power but individual belief in God can still change people independently. 2:11:22 The challenge of defining consciousness beyond brains 2:13:17 Re-evaluating consciousness in fish and brain neuron significance 2:17:07 Brain operations can lead to surprising recovery 2:19:18 Consciousness involves making choices among possible actions. 2:23:27 New scientific worldview impacting consciousness and life 2:25:12 Consciousness is not just information processing in the brain 2:29:00 Consciousness is deeply biological and rooted in the phenomenology of being a living organism. 2:31:01 People feel a sense of being communicated to beyond themselves. 2:35:21 Building conscious artificial intelligence raises ethical concerns. 2:37:03 Consciousness affects our ethical and moral decisions about artificial intelligence. 2:41:12 Understanding consciousness requires considering diverse experiences and scientific exploration. 2:43:20 Importance of taking experiences seriously You Can't Judge A Video By Its Cover you can by its first few chapters and certainly by its last.

A segment from 'Saved by the Light of the Buddha Within'... My new understandings of what many call 'God -The Holy Spirit' - resulting from some of the extraordinary ongoing after-effects relating to my NDE... Myoho-Renge-Kyo represents the identity of what some scientists are now referring to as the unified field of consciousnesses. In other words, it’s the essence of all existence and non-existence – the ultimate creative force behind planets, stars, nebulae, people, animals, trees, fish, birds, and all phenomena, manifest or latent. All matter and intelligence are simply waves or ripples manifesting to and from this core source. Consciousness (enlightenment) is itself the actual creator of everything that exists now, ever existed in the past, or will exist in the future – right down to the minutest particles of dust – each being an individual ripple or wave. The big difference between chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo and most other conventional prayers is that instead of depending on a ‘middleman’ to connect us to our state of inner enlightenment, we’re able to do it ourselves. That’s because chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo allows us to tap directly into our enlightened state by way of this self-produced sound vibration. ‘Who or What Is God?’ If we compare the concept of God being a separate entity that is forever watching down on us, to the teachings of Nichiren, it makes more sense to me that the true omnipotence, omniscience and omnipresence of what most people perceive to be God, is the fantastic state of enlightenment that exists within each of us. Some say that God is an entity that’s beyond physical matter – I think that the vast amount of information continuously being conveyed via electromagnetic waves in today’s world gives us proof of how an invisible state of God could indeed exist. For example, it’s now widely known that specific data relayed by way of electromagnetic waves has the potential to help bring about extraordinary and powerful effects – including an instant global awareness of something or a mass emotional reaction. It’s also common knowledge that these invisible waves can easily be used to detonate a bomb or to enable NASA to control the movements of a robot as far away as the Moon or Mars – none of which is possible without a receiver to decode the information that’s being transmitted. Without the receiver, the data would remain impotent. In a very similar way, we need to have our own ‘receiver’ switched on so that we can activate a clear and precise understanding of our own life, all other life and what everything else in existence is. Chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day helps us to achieve this because it allows us to reach the core of our enlightenment and keep it switched on. That’s because Myoho-Renge-Kyo represents the identity of what scientists now refer to as the unified field of consciousnesses. To break it down – Myoho represents the Law of manifestation and latency (Nature) and consists of two alternating states. For example, the state of Myo is where everything in life that’s not obvious to us exists – including our stored memories when we’re not thinking about them – our hidden potential and inner emotions whenever they’re dormant – our desires, our fears, our wisdom, happiness, karma – and more importantly, our enlightenment. The other state, ho, is where everything in Life exists whenever it becomes evident to us, such as when a thought pops up from within our memory – whenever we experience or express our emotions – or whenever a good or bad cause manifests as an effect from our karma. When anything becomes apparent, it merely means that it’s come out of the state of Myo (dormancy/latency) and into a state of ho (manifestation). It’s the difference between consciousness and unconsciousness, being awake or asleep, or knowing and not knowing. The second law – Renge – Ren meaning cause and ge meaning effect, governs and controls the functions of Myoho – these two laws of Myoho and Renge, not only function together simultaneously but also underlies all spiritual and physical existence. The final and third part of the tri-combination – Kyo, is the Law that allows Myoho to integrate with Renge – or vice versa. It’s the great, invisible thread of energy that fuses and connects all Life and matter – as well as the past, present and future. It’s also sometimes termed the Universal Law of Communication – perhaps it could even be compared with the string theory that many scientists now suspect exists. Just as the cells in our body, our thoughts, feelings and everything else is continually fluctuating within us – all that exists in the world around us and beyond is also in a constant state of flux – constantly controlled by these three fundamental laws. In fact, more things are going back and forth between the two states of Myo and ho in a single moment than it would ever be possible to calculate or describe. And it doesn’t matter how big or small, famous or trivial anything or anyone may appear to be, everything that’s ever existed in the past, exists now or will exist in the future, exists only because of the workings of the Laws ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’ – the basis of the four fundamental forces, and if they didn’t function, neither we nor anything else could go on existing. That’s because all forms of existence, including the seasons, day, night, birth, death and so on, are moving forward in an ongoing flow of continuation – rhythmically reverting back and forth between the two fundamental states of Myo and ho in absolute accordance with Renge – and by way of Kyo. Even stars are dying and being reborn under the workings of what the combination ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’ represents. Nam, or Namu – which mean the same thing, are vibrational passwords or keys that allow us to reach deep into our life and fuse with or become one with ‘Myoho-Renge-Kyo’. On a more personal level, nothing ever happens by chance or coincidence, it’s the causes that we’ve made in our past, or are presently making, that determine how these laws function uniquely in each of our lives – as well as the environment from moment to moment. By facing east, in harmony with the direction that the Earth is spinning, and chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo for a minimum of, let’s say, ten minutes daily to start with, any of us can experience actual proof of its positive effects in our lives – even if it only makes us feel good on the inside, there will be a definite positive effect. That’s because we’re able to pierce through the thickest layers of our karma and activate our inherent Buddha Nature (our enlightened state). By so doing, we’re then able to bring forth the wisdom and good fortune that we need to challenge, overcome and change our adverse circumstances – turn them into positive ones – or manifest and gain even greater fulfilment in our daily lives from our accumulated good karma. This also allows us to bring forth the wisdom that can free us from the ignorance and stupidity that’s preventing us from accepting and being proud of the person that we indeed are – regardless of our race, colour, gender or sexuality. We’re also able to see and understand our circumstances and the environment far more clearly, as well as attract and connect with any needed external beneficial forces and situations. As I’ve already mentioned, everything is subject to the law of Cause and Effect – the ‘actual-proof-strength’ resulting from chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo always depends on our determination, sincerity and dedication. For example, the levels of difference could be compared to making a sound on a piano, creating a melody, producing a great song, and so on. Something else that’s very important to always respect and acknowledge is that the Law (or if you prefer God) is in everyone and everything. NB: There are frightening and disturbing sounds, and there are tranquil and relaxing sounds. It’s the emotional result of any noise or sound that can trigger off a mood or even instantly change one. When chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo each day, we are producing a sound vibration that’s the password to our true inner-self – this soon becomes apparent when you start reassessing your views on various things – such as your fears and desires etc. The best way to get the desired result when chanting is not to view things conventionally – rather than reaching out to an external source, we need to reach into our own lives and bring our needs and desires to fruition from within – including the good fortune and strength to achieve any help that we may need. Chanting Nam-Myoho-Renge-Kyo also reaches out externally and draws us towards, or draws towards us, what we need to make us happy from our environment. For example, it helps us to be in the right place at the right time – to make better choices and decisions and so forth. We need to think of it as a seed within us that we’re watering and bringing sunshine to for it to grow, blossom and bring forth fruit or flowers. It’s also important to understand that everything we need in life, including the answer to every question and the potential to achieve every dream, already exists within us.

What a beautiful conversation. I like the respect shown by all three participants, despite their differing, but very studied, points of view. All three speakers have given me a lot to reflect on in this matter. Thank you.

I wish there was a debate with consciousness and Dementia…..

Obviously. Hence vibes, animal sensing, presence in and beyond dreams, imagination projecting into space and time etc.

Amazing!

1:25:28 - If it turns out that space-time is a brain made UI the inside-outside distinction might be a lot more complicated and at that point you'd need to consider more that a conscious being is, with Karl Friston's theory, a bundle of Markov blanketed sectors where what we experience as 'us' is a particularly Markov bundle that distinguishes our subjectivity from our experience of the outside / objective world, but the question is whether that Markov blanket exists within us and whether we're ultimately rendering (ourselves) something really complicated into the appearance of Baryonic matter.