WTF?
Publicado 2012-01-23
Todos los comentarios (21)
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@darktango78 Your question was, "Can you show an example of any other major religion that, in its current form, DOES?" This question depends on a religion existing in only one form. No religion does, at least as far as I know. That's the relevance.
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@darktango78 The criticism I'm making in the video is that one who would otherwise be completely willing to just refute a given argument has to hesitate with Islam because of political opportunitists frothing at the mouth for the chance to usurp any such effort to score popularity points.
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@lazyperfectionist1 Your question talked about "the current form," which is singular. But no religion has ever existed in only one form, so this assumption of singularity is unwarranted, which makes any question that relies on it absolutely loaded. You recognized this when you later revised the question to account for this. If your question was not loaded, why did it need revising?
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@lazyperfectionist1 You were not asking for overt accounts of violence. You were asking for a call to global conquest. Which goal post are you going to move next?
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@lazyperfectionist1 "So then you can point to instances of these others I have pointed to having the same thing happen to them?" You lost me. I don't understand what you're asking me.
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Good one. I rofl'd.
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@darktango78 "I have never seen anyone make an inference from flawed apologetics to intolerance of religious freedom." My criticism is that, with other religions, it's enough to just to argue against the shpiel, but somehow, when it comes to Islam, there is this determination to leap from this to arguing against the religious freedoms of Muslims. It's not about inferring flawed apologetics; it's about arguing against the shpiel. Arguing against the shpiel.
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@lazyperfectionist1 The comments section is not the best place to find rationality. Also the double standard with Islam cuts both ways. It's difficult to voice a concern with the tenets and practices of the religion without being labeled a racist, bigot, islamophobe, etc. This does not happen with any other religion that I'm aware of.
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Could we go any other way . . .
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@lazyperfectionist1 I have moved nothing. The question is still posted for you to go back and review at your leisure right were we left it. It reads clearly "violent conquest of non-believers". (And, also, if you reply to yourself in the comment rather than me, then I am not notified you've replied.)
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@lazyperfectionist1 The "revision" was a clarification. The second form was just as good for my purposes as the first. And I note you still haven't answered it. For the record, a loaded question is one in which, by the act of answering it, you admit to something. For instance, "when did you stop beating your wife?" I ask for a specific example. Simply answering my question would concede nothing and would actually support your claim.
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I agree with you, Muslims should be second class citizens! (note: totally not serious)
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@darktango78 "Can you show an example of any other major religion that, in its current form, DOES?" Can you show me a religion with only one form?
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@darktango78 "The comments section is not the best place to find rationality." I was not saying otherwise. You asked where to find such an argument and I told you. I know very well that this argument is irrational. Such is what I'm pointing out here. I'm also well aware that the double-standard cuts both ways. What does this have to do with my criticism?
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@CHAS1422 Therefore, the faith-based initiatives?
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@lazyperfectionist1 Yes, I would give the same treatment and have. The church has lost nearly all authority in judicial matters due to constant criticism over the last 300 years in the west. Even though politicians give lip service and religious leaders hold sway, there are no blasphemy laws or judicial authority or scientific censorship. Carefully look at Saudia Arabia where sharia law holds sway. I find the culture and belief system to be contrary to my own.
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@robtbo Can you show me a religion whose doctrine never prophesies global domination?
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I think it goes deeper than simply condemning Islam becasue we don't like Muslims or want them to be second class citizens. It is the doctrine of Islam that needs scrutiny. This is not to give a pass to any religion per se, but I find the explicite open imperatives to kill, or subjugate non-believers to be suspect. I like Muslims, but am against the doctrines in Islam. We can criticize the doctrine especially if it is bigoted toward us. All religion are flawed, but not all in the same way.
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@darktango78 No, my criticism is that arguments against other religions are content to simply poke holes in the shpiel, while arguments against Islam have a way of being warped into arguments against the religious freedoms of Muslims; in my country, that is an argument against the first amendment. With any other religion, one can condemn the beliefs, but with Islam, for some reason, one must also condemn the freedom of those who have them.
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@darktango78 So then you can point to instances of these others I have pointed to having the same thing happen to them?
